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CML and no antibodies

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Good Morning,

I live in the US and I have had two antibodies tests, one after my second Pfizer shot, and one after my third Pfizer shot and both of my antibodies tests have come back as completely negative; has anyone else had negative antibodies tests?  I also took a t-cell test after my second shot, and it was negative too.  My Oncologists says it doesn't mean anything since there are other ways for the body to fight off Covid.  I would appreciate insight and comments please.

Do you know your vitamin D level?

(It would be interesting if you vitamin D level is substantially higher than 30 ng/ml)

I have had both Nucleocapsid protein antibody and Spike protein antibody tests. The N protein ab test was negative (indicating no previous infection with COVID); The S protein ab test was positive (indicating antibodies arising from vaccination).  I’m sure this doesn’t apply to you but I know some people who have had a negative result but didn’t realise their test was for N protein abs only and that they needed the S test to be done.  

Last time I had it checked it was normal, and I take 4000 mg a day too. 

There is an inverse relationship between vitamin D levels and antibody titers (antibody amount). Some studies show D levels above as little as 30 ng/ml being significant in keeping antibody levels low. 70 ng/ml is a "sweet" spot for maximum benefit.

And as odd as this sounds - this is a good thing! It is the overactive immune system response due to low vitamin D status which leads to excess inflammation which can lead to hypoxia in the lungs. Viral clearing does not take much once the antigen is recognized. And adequate vitamin D keeps immune response modulated properly. Only a few antibody's are needed for that. Think about it this way. Years and years ago - like when you were 2, you received the measles vaccine. Your body generated antibodies and after 50 or so years, these antibodies won't be detected, but they are there - just a few. And when your body is exposed to the measles virus, your high vitamin D causes T-cells to get busy fast and destroy the virus. You never knew you were exposed to the virus. It is the way our immune system is supposed to work.

The same thing is at work with the flu. (And Covid is a flu). With high vitamin D, your body creates a few antibody's to map the antigen and then unleashes T-cells to kill the virus quickly (within hours in some cases). Virus is gone, and inflammation is minimized and you never even knew it. Conversely, low vitamin D does not put a check on the antibody response and lots of antibody's are created which lead to inflammation. This is not good. Low vitamin D invites an overactive immune response which can kill (Covid hypoxia or flu pneumonia, etc.).

Many medical professionals don't understand the mechanisms for this inverse relationship. And so - if you have low antibodies, they think the vaccine is not working. It's the wrong interpretation. And ironically - if you have high vitamin D, you likely don't need the vaccine in the first place.

 

Hi Scuba,

Just a few observations.

Thanks for your very interesting explanation.I have been following the many videos on YouTube posted under "Dr Beens Medical Lectures" which covers topics such as the immune system,the value of Vitamin D and how vaccines assist immune response, amongst others. Dr Been is not a charlatan but a qualified medic who takes medical research papers and interprets them for his audience using some useful graphics.

One interpretation of the actions of the Pfizer vaccine is that it moderates the response of the innate immune system and prevents over reaction to the invading virus or bacteria and so prevents the cytokene storms that trigger off substantial inflammation of the lungs and other organs.This backs up your statement re the value of adequate Vit D levels as an additional  moderating influence.The innate reaction is apparently immediate but the acquired or learned immune response is there to back up to fight the invasion of the virus  and is more long term (say days or a week)-this is where t and b cells come to the rescue and some of them are killer cells of the virus if it gets this far.This all assumes that your innate response has not already  gone into overdrive and compromised your lungs and your breathing and led to rapid hospitalization.I dont have a medical training but would it be right to assume that if you have not had Covid then perhaps the b and t cells have not been in action or tested against any potential virus ;if post  a Covid infection then you might test better for an antibody response level as your individual innate and learned responses have been asked to respond ?Just a thought.

My other observation is that there are not many foods that assist us to raise Vit D levels in the body-the usual ones cited are oily fish ,red meat and liver; fortified foods- say cereals and  then mushrooms (certain varieties and especially if grown outdoors or under strong UV light).Then add in the sun and supplements.

Even without testing of the immune system there seem to be some signs of what might be considered as a healthy immune system or a depleted one-constant colds,intestinal issues and some autoimmune conditions ( e.g.muscular inflammation or joint issues ) might be warning signs that all is not well.

So in conclusion and going back to the initial posting  there may be credibility in the statement by the specialist who observed that antibody tests of relatively healthy persons may tell us little;for CML patients anyone below 0.1 PCR might be in this category but for recently dx patients with poor functioning bone marrow production it might be different.

Regards

John

P.S. Re vaccines there seem to be a very small number of previously vaccinated persons who subseqently then contract Covid and in a very small number of cases are hospitalised or die -initial observations are that they are older ,have a number of co morbitities and may be immuno-suppressed etc.I am not sure if there have been any studies undertaken yet on immunity issues for this specific group.

Re studies of Covid patients and their response to Vit D in UK Professor Robert Thomas who wrote"Lifestyle after Cancer" and "How to Live" was trying to set up a double blind trial on such patients but found barriers etc as Vit D was not seen a medicine-again on You Tube perhaps.

Thanks for the links Scuba. This is a really interesting issue given there is little understanding of antibodies/immune responses etc. I find these articles very helpful to my (lay) understanding. This ongoing conversation about Vit D3 levels and 'health' is truly educative enlightened

Sandy

I believe my test was for both, it was the SARS CoV2, IgG Nucleocap, IgM Spike, QL test - which seems to cover pretty much everything.  I'm just trying to understand why in the world after three shots there seems to be absolutely no protection from Covid for me - and to see if there are other who are experiencing the same things.

Just as a bit of re assurance, my consultant was tested for anti bodies after 2 jabs and he was told there were no anti bodies.  He did catch covid but had the most minor of infection symptoms for a few days.  I was told the the vaccines prime the cells to know what to do if an infection enters the body so you should still have some protection.

I wont pretend to understand the the details and links posted above but hopefully your consultant can reassure you. Of course we all still need to remain very careful.  

You may very well have protection even if you can't measure for antibodies!

What a vaccine does is cause antibody's to be produced (think of if as an all points bulletin with map handed out to police, where police are T-cells) sufficient to get rid of the vaccine. The vaccine, after all, is not welcome in the body - so your body gets rid of it. If you body has difficulty getting rid of it, more antibodies are produced (which also is inflammatory!). Eventually your response is sufficient and the "infection" or vaccine is removed. What's left behind are a few memory cells (i.e. the all points bulletin is tacked up in the office in case needed again) so T-cells can be called to action quickly should re-exposure occur.

Given that you take 4,000 IU's per day vitamin D, you may very well have high D sufficient for rapid response. The faster the response in clearing the virus (or vaccine), the fewer antibodies needed.

It seems contrary to the idea behind a vaccine creating antibodies (which they do) - but fewer is better if fewer work - less inflammation. Vitamin D activates T-cells fast (when there is enough D) based on the antibodies created by the B-cells in response to an antigen (virus or vaccine). If T-cells are not responding quickly (i.e. as in you have low D), the body keeps making more antibodies to get things going. This is no doubt why people with low D catching Covid have such high inflammation which can lead to hypoxia. They are making antibodies and no one is listening (i.e T-cells not getting activated) so more are made.

Ironically - once the infection is cleared, what's left are all those antibodies and T-cells which have to be told to stand down (i.e. go away) and vitamin D comes into play to activate other T-cells which do just that.

We're all different - some people will show higher antibodies than others in response to the vaccine - but I suspect people with adequate and high normal vitamin D would not have much antibodies in response - whether it be the flu, colds or other respiratory virus'.

I hope my explanation above is clear - I'm trying to avoid the medical jargon. Immunology is complex - but bit by bit, we're sorting it out (especially as it relates to cancer).

Thanks so much, that is a bit of a reassurance!

Scuba, thanks for taking the time to write this easy to understand summary of an immune response and the important role that D3 plays. 

Sandy

Just found this very readable article about vitamin D and T cells with covid

https://www.bmj.com/content/370/bmj.m3563/rr-6

 

 

Excellent reference!

.... from the article,

"Substantially more vitamin D is required for optimal immune function than for bone health. It seems Dr Fauci is not ignorant of this, having apparently confirmed on TV and by email that he takes 6,000 IU daily! (see Dr John Campbell on YouTube Vitamin D and pandemic science, 16 September 2020). Meanwhile the US’s health body continues to recommend only 600-800 IU and the UK’s, only 400 IU.

It is high time for joined up solid scientific rationale to overthrow mainstream narratives based on an alternative “science” controlled by industry interests/politics. Beda M Stadler, the former Director of the Institute for Immunology at the University of Bern, a biologist and Professor Emeritus, certainly appears to think so (see Ivor Cummins Ep91 Emeritus Professor of Immunology...Reveals Crucial Viral Immunity Reality on YouTube, 28 July 2020).

In the same way that prior infections protect us against future infections by means of cross-reacting T-cells, overcoming COVID-19 naturally offers potential for greater protection against future coronaviruses. Vaccines have their place but so do our amazingly complex, sophisticated, highly effective immune systems which have evolved over millennia to protect us from a world teeming with trillions of pathogens."