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Update and withdrawals?

Hi all.

Hope you are well.

I just wanted to post to give you guys an update, and again, ask for some advice?

I have recently been to Hammersmith for a one off appointment due to all the problems I have had since diagnosis and with seemingly no resolution. Nearly 2 weeks have passed since my appointment where I was assessed and questioned, it is believed that my issues with pain IS to do with CML or its treatment with TKI's and therefore I have been asked to suspend treatment for 3 months coming off Bosutinib. I have been told the next few months will be a good test to see what happens off treatment. Here are the scenarios...

I start to feel better after no treatment for 3 month (I have been told to expect even abnormal heamatological results). If I feel better, TKI therapy is no good for me, as Bosutinb is my 4th treatment in 2 and a half years, and a stem cell transplant would be advisable.

I had my first bone marrow biospy to check for scarring or overactive bone marrow, if this is the case then I would also go down the transplant route.

If I feel no different then something else will have to be looked at or into.

Now this is the strange part, nearly 2 weeks off treatment and I actually feel worse than I was, pain in my knucke and index finger, neck pain has flared up, mid back pain as well. This is on top of all the other issues I have had.

Has anyone else suffered with possible "withdrawals"?

 

Could it just be leaving my system?

Any advice would be appreciated, I'm at my wit's end.

John

 

 

Never been in that position.    

I don't know what symptoms you've been suffering from or how long it is since diagnosis and whether you've got good results (undetectables) for a decent period of time but my immediate reaction is that I'd have to be on death's door and in utter permanent agony to consider coming off TKI's UNLESS I had got brilliant molecular results for a long time.  

I've had a bone marrow transplant and believe me that is not something I'd ever "recommend" unless it was a case of "no real choice". 

Sounds like your consultant is doing the right and logical thing though in ruling out medication as causative and checking other big things before going down that route. 

Have you been referred for things like x rays and scans and physiotherapy assessment to rule out coincidental conditions?  Also have you been to a REALLY good pain management clinic and in advance of this?

Hi,

Over the past 2 year I have had 5 MRI's, 5 Xrays, and you guessed it, 5 ultrasound tests. I have been under the care of a Rheumatologist, Neurologist, discharged from both with no abnormal fndings, I have had 2 expert opinions on my knee's both conflicting from moderate wear and tear to nothing of any significance. I had a mild disc bulge lower c spine show up in my last spinal MRI in 2014 but assured this what not giving me the pain I was describing. I've had numerous physiotherapists both offer programmes and advice, all blamed my TKI's for bizarre pain patterns and carry over from minimal activity. This is my 4th TKI, Nilotinib and Bosutinb mildy better than Imatinib and Dasatinib.

With regard to pain, I have went from a super fit firefighter to a man who can't lift his son, struggles to climb in and out of cars and bath, struggles to carry a shopping bag, and has to get down on the floor in micro installments. When I say I have physically changed would be an understatement. Pain is daily and the score varies from a 2 to an 8 out of 10, and flares up from the most inconspicuous movements. Recently I have had to stand at a heavy door and await someone to push it as it was too heavy to pull, this door was a standard press the green button hospital door, which a slim old lady pulled open with ease!

The pain areas have been my neck, arm, shoulder, fingers, hips, back (mainly), and knees. It moves month on month but never goes completely.

As for a transplant, I have been assured this is a stem cell transplantation which is different to a bone marrow transplant in its process, less evasive. I am more frightened I am left living this life and deteriorating monthly than any transplant. I'm 35 with a dependent family, all I want to do is work, play with my 2 year old son and take care of my wife.

I don't know myself what is going on. All I know is the only thing that coincides with my current state is CML and treatment. How can someone go from being in very good shape medically and physically to this?

As I say my biggest fear is nothing is found from all these tests and whatever is going on continues to the point I am worse year on year.

Thanks for your advice and response.

John.

 

Hi John,

Sorry to hear you have been suffering so much, hope things settle down and get better. Couple of points, first, yes withdrawal symptoms are known about, indeed there seems to be growing evidence. Secondly, coming off treatment for 3 months seems very excessive to me, why are they talking about such a long break, usually a TKI will leave your system in a couple of weeks or less I understood ?

  Nigel

 

Hi Nigel

I was told that 2 weeks maybe too short, and when I have had a short break in the past I have seen no or at least very little change. The only time I have seen a dramatic improvement was when I was taken off Imatinib for back, hip, knuckle pain in early January 2014 for a approx 10 weeks and started Nilotinib (half dose) in very early April. In that instance by early May I was feeling like I was improving dramatically.

This is the reason HH think 12 weeks would be a good test, I have also responded very well to all TKI's in PCR terms. I think with this being my final TKI to try, I am running out of options for a tolerable pain level for daily living at 35. I was on 45 pills per day 5 month ago.

Regarding the withdrawals I have seen my pain increase since my last dose of Bosutinb 2 weeks ago. My index finger joint has also started to hurt to bend/straighten and hold things. It is more a nuisance than a pain in comparison to the neck pain etc. I have heard the withdrawals linked to Imatinib but is this across the board?

Thanks for your concern Nigel and good to hear from you, last time we spoke was at the CML conference in Newcastle. Hope your still managing to get the games of Squash in.

Thanks.

John

Hi John-Paul,

As Nigel has said there is growing evidence that some people do suffer significant worsening of pain on discontinuation of TKI therapy- and yes it seems to be across the different TKIs. I do hope your pain subsides quickly- 2 weeks is not long to recover from what are grade 3 and 4 side effects so hang in there (not much choice but I know) . As you are ultra sensitive to TKI therapy in terms of your molecular responses, it is likely that you are ultra sensitive to the negative effects (ie. side effects) of such therapy.  

Stem cell transplants have really improved - even over the last 10 years. It would be great if you could find a TKI that you did not suffer such high grade side effects from, but as you have tried 4 out of the currently available 5, this seems unlikely. 

Keep us updated as you go along over the next weeks and months. 3 months seems like a long time without treatment but your PCRs are low and I am sure HH along with your clinician will keep a close eye on your results.

Sandy

In reply to Sandy:

Is there any evidence (from the Destiny, or other trials) that the pains people get on withdrawal from TKIs are temporary and will eventually decrease, or is it too early to say?  

Since I have been on the reduced dose of 300 mg of imatinib, I have had new shoulder pains.  An x-ray result was "normal wear and tear", and I am waiting for a physio appointment, but trying not to take too many painkillers.  I had hoped for a further dose reduction, but if that means more or different pains, I'm not so sure...

Olivia

More information re DESTINY is on the pinned post at the top of the forum:

http://www.cmlsupport.org.uk/thread/10724/destiny-updates-those-enrolled...

 

The simple answer is :  No information, it's too early.   

I would say though that I've now been over a month medication free.  No pains at all arising from anything to do with imatanib when on full dose or on half dose for a year and then imatanib free.    For me there's been a huge and significant improvement with regard to cramps.   I've gone from those being a several times a day occurrence to being more normal and occasional.

I always think that it's incredibly difficult to sort out what is a "side effect" and what is just "coincidental".    Especially if it's in your head to expect something.

I'm a horse trainer and it kind of goes with that territory that I could speak for team Great Britain on orthopaedics and all things relating to primary and secondary jont conditions. 

Then I'm older and even more decrepid and know darned well that decades of abuse and excessive and unusual use means that inevitably my joints and supportive structures are going to occasionally / frequently be troubling me.    Nothing to do with TKI's though... more to do with a set of mechano plates and pins in one leg.  Countless fractures to both collar bones, significant injury to wrists, thumbs, shoulder, knees blah blah blah.  

Aside from my own personal experience though I've spent forever working with equestrian athletes - horses and human.   So I've a mass of academic knowledge and experience of the subject of Equine and human sports science, applied biomechanics, equine and human exercise physiology, sports injury, rehabilitation and therapy and pain management.

I will say that it's all well and good having a shoulder x ray and being told "normal wear and tear" but frankly that's meaningless.     Do they mean "normal" for someone whose hobby is watching tennis on tv or someone who plays tennis?    Furthermore an x ray will not identify things like soft tissue injury or sprains or strains or anything to do with nerves, ligaments, tendons.    Picture this:  IF you have ever had such as a rotator cuff injury then you've a mass of a group of muscles and tendons that surround the joint that could be causing a problem and which can't be seen on any x ray.    I'd suggest you go back to your gp and say as an x ray is neither definitive nor a treatment and you still have the problem that you need further referral.   I'd suggest say a good physio assessment and referral first.     Possibly dependent on that though you may need an MRI scan or an ultrasound scan.   Those are the things that "can"  diagnose problems with soft tissue and such as ligaments and tendons.   As you've got CML, you'll be having regular blood counts but ask them to check if you've actually even had a test to rule out such as polymyalgia. 

Have you ever tried to manage your shoulder pain with such as anti-inflammatories or ice?  Or corticoistoids?   If so what happened?   Did anything work?    IF not... then why not ?  As in Why the heck not?   All questions really for your doctor too.      Got to say that there are a lot of gp's who seem to be what I call "diagnostically challenged".   

Thanks for all that, Darley.

I find that heat can help a little - a warm pad, or a rub with the sort of cream that was called Algipan in my youth.  I haven't tried ice, as it doesn't seem to be inflamed.  I'm waiting for a physio appointment and hope to get one soon.  I don't think my shoulder pain was caused by any injury, I was first aware of it feeling stiff when I woke up one morning, and it got a bit worse over the next few days, then has remained about the same.  Worst in the morning and late at night.  It's not unbearable, perhaps 3/10, occasionally 4 but no more.  I will ask some questions at my next check-up in a couple of weeks.

Olivia

I have just done a little research on TKI 'withdrawal syndrome' and came across this interesting article- see link and copy below (my italics in bold). I absolutely agree with Darley that 'normal wear and tear' is a meaningless (although common and unhelpful) comment usually uttered by GP's although sometimes from specialists too- probably when confronted with conditions/symptoms that they either cannot explain or have no intention of treating (or both).

Sandy 

http://jco.ascopubs.org/content/32/25/2821.full

Musculoskeletal Pain in Patients With Chronic Myeloid Leukemia After Discontinuation of Imatinib: A Tyrosine Kinase Inhibitor Withdrawal Syndrome?

"Rousselot et al1 recently reported on the According to Stop Imatinib (A-STIM) study evaluating the persistence of major molecular response (MMR) in patients with chronic-phase chronic myeloid leukemia (CP CML) who had discontinued imatinib after prolonged deep molecular remission. They found that 61% of the patients were still in MMR and were treatment free after 36 months, whereas those who lost MMR and restarted tyrosine kinase inhibitor (TKI) therapy all regained MMR. They concluded that loss of MMR is a safe criterion for restarting therapy after TKI discontinuation. However, possible adverse effects derived from this therapeutic strategy were not mentioned in the report.

Although it is well known that imatinib can induce adverse events in, for example, the musculoskeletal system,2,3 it has been assumed that such adverse events are generally reversible on cessation of therapy. In Europe, a multinational trial of TKI discontinuation, Europe Stop Tyrosine Kinase Inhibitors (EURO-SKI, NCT01596114, approved by the regional ethical board in Lund, Sweden) is ongoing. In this trial, patients with CML treated for at least 3 years with a TKI, having achieved and maintained MR4 (BCR/ABL1 < 0.01%) for at least 1 year, are offered TKI discontinuation and follow-up. In EURO-SKI we have, somewhat unexpectedly, observed a substantial rate of patients reporting musculoskeletal pain that begins or worsens within weeks after stopping imatinib therapy. More specifically, in a cohort consisting of the first 50 patients in Sweden who were included in EURO-SKI and were observed for at least 6 months (range, 6 to 15 months) after stopping imatinib, 15 patients (30%) reported musculoskeletal pain evolving gradually from 1 to 6 weeks after TKI discontinuation (Table 1). The pain was localized to various parts of the body, including the shoulder and hip regions, extremities, and/or hands/feet; sometimes the pain manifested as muscle tenderness, whereas at other times it resembled polymyalgia rheumatica.

The 15 patients consisted of nine women and six men with a median age at TKI discontinuation of 62 years (range, 49 to 74 years). The median duration of CML disease and imatinib therapy was 10 years (range, 4 to 16 years) and 9 years (range, 4 to 10 years), respectively. In eight patients the symptoms were graded as 2 on the Common Terminology Criteria for Adverse Events scale (version 4.0), and in seven patients as grade 1. Four had a previous medical history that included musculoskeletal system symptoms.

Only minor laboratory abnormalities were noted in association with the musculoskeletal symptoms. The C-reactive protein serum level was marginally increased in two of 10 patients, who had levels of 3.5 mg/L and 7 mg/L, respectively, but was normal in the other eight patients. Serum protein electrophoresis showed marginal inflammatory activity in three of eight investigated patients, but was normal in the others. Creatinine kinase and lactate dehydrogenase were normal in all patients analyzed, 14 and seven patients, respectively.

Although these adverse events were mild in seven individuals, only leading to use of nonprescription drugs (paracetamol or nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drugs), eight patients were more severely afflicted, with manifestations that interfered with everyday activities. In five of these patients, corticosteroids were given (10 to 20 mg prednisolone per day), with tapering within weeks. All five patients demonstrated clear improvement within days, but in one patient, prednisolone could not be tapered without the reappearance of symptoms.

The rate of molecular relapse within the first 6 months after imatinib discontinuation did not differ between patients presenting with musculoskeletal adverse effects and those without (data not shown). Among these 15 patients, seven lost MMR and restarted imatinib, at which point six patients had persistent musculoskeletal symptoms. In all six patients, the symptoms completely resolved within 1 to 3 months after imatinib reinitiation. Among the remaining eight patients, still in MMR without TKI therapy, the musculoskeletal symptoms have fully resolved in two, partially resolved in four, but prevail in two (Table 1). In none of the patients was there any concomitant medication that was suspected of having a possible association with the musculoskeletal adverse effects. It is known that long-term imatinib treatment can cause disturbances in electrolyte balance (ie, hypophosphatemia) and bone metabolism.4 Whether the symptoms described here represent rebound phenomena from these adverse effects, or have another background, warrants further investigation. It should be remembered that imatinib, in addition to blocking BCR/ABL1 activity, also inhibits c-Kit and platelet-derived growth factor receptor, that is, receptor signaling that may possibly be linked to the observed adverse effects.5

Manifestations similar to those described here have also been observed in patients at other centers participating in EURO-SKI (in Germany, Holland, Finland, and Norway; J.S. Saussele, J. Janssen, P. Koskenvesa, personal communication, December 2013).

It would thus be of great interest to learn from Rousselot et al1 whether a similar so-called withdrawal syndrome was also noted in their trial. If supported and confirmed, our observations should raise awareness among investigators and clinicians as to the appearance of adverse events after the cessation of long-term TKI therapy, prompt the rapid reporting of such symptoms, and incite investigations into underlying mechanisms."

 

Thanks for alerting me to that article, Sandy, I found it very interesting.  There are a few points arising that I will talk about when I see my consultant in a couple of weeks.

Piece of advice... Don't put up with "it's just side effects then".

I hate diagnosis by guess work or presumption or the lazy and inept.   Nearly lost my life because of that when I first was ill with CML.   I had "it will be occupational asthma.. take these steroids!"  Two days later I was blue lighted to an intensive care unit!    With what turned out to be sight and life threatening Cytomegalovirus retinitis  it was "at your age you'll need glasses.  Go to the optician."    I've also had idiot doctors tell me that a fractured ankle was "just a sprain".  A dislocated shoulder as "at your time of life you expect a bit of pain" and then as an excuse/defence: "you must have a high pain threshold".   duhhhh! My fault then!     

Believe me when I said some doctors are "diagnostically challenged" I was being polite!  

Make sure you also go back to your GP for proper referral for PROPER and comprehensive testing and diagnosis.  

hi, Darley,

I totally agree with you that some doctors have diagnostic challenge.   Before I was  diagnosed by an more experienced doctor, I first went to another doctor.  I told him that I had ongoing cough for 3 months, and lost 5kg in a short period of time (my weight was usually stable).  He said nothing but gave me some cough syrup.  I was lucky that I tried another doctor (i am still grateful) one week later.  She said to me you look very pale, and she sent me to do a blood test straigt away.  The next morning, I got a call from the doctor telling me my WBC was extremely high, and then the process started from there.  So that I learnt --  doctors diagnosis can be very different from one to the other. Always get a second opinion if you are not sure.

regards,

William

Thank you for your post Sandy. In any of your research did you happen to run across severe dizziness and blurred vision as a withdrawl symptom from imatinib? My Dad is 80 years old and stopped his dose 5 days ago under physician orders. Now for 2 mornings he's had severe dizziness and blurred vision. Any help would be appreciated. Please and thank you,
Pam

Pam... why has your dad had his TKI therapy stopped? I am not aware that withdrawal syndrome included severe dizziness and blurred vision. 

Sandy